Watch: Career Moves: Work Culture Differences — U.S. vs. India | Shivy's Return Story

3:49 And I can still wait and continue my journey of a of a job and why did why is a green card important to me or why is permanent residence important in the US is because e in US you are either on an H1 or an L1 if you are working now if you are on a dependent then you can do anything else so for example if you're an L2 H4 it works but H1 and L1 is very very much tied to your job so you cannot do any side hustles right now with the present laws under H1 and L1 for example you can't drive an Uber for extra cash right so that's something that you can't do you can't really think about creating a business sure you can start maybe investing in properties and then have a property manager manager and then that can be your side Hustle but you cannot meaningfully spend time in creating anything of value on the side so those are some very big restrictions of H1 and L1 in my honest opinion so of course permanent

4:51 Residency was that freedom that I was looking for and when I looked at the statistics of inash and I'm not making this up there was a very detailed C Research Institute study the weit time in 2000 if you file for your green card in 2017 for Indians people of Indian origin was 80 years and 150 years in eb3 so it was a or or maybe vice versa but it was like I would be dead basically right so before even getting my green card and that was not it that this is not going to work work for me because just how I am as a person that I wanted to have varied interests I wanted to discover and explore new things so my husband and I started to think at that point what are our options right and our options were basically live on an H1 for the entirety of Our Lives that's the number one and then as soon as you retire you kicked out and you

5:53 Basically don't get any of the benefits that You' have paid for the second option is that explore Canada and the the reason was that in 2017 and 18 Canada was really up and coming so the skilled worker visa was becoming very very or skilled worker permanent residence was very very prevalent in Canada at that point so but then Canada is also very cold so as a person who's who does not enjoy cold weather too much I was like don't want to go north so that is not going to happen either so what can we do and my husband was very open to us moving to a either a more immigration friendly country if it was not that cold basically or moving back to India because India is really really there are so many opportunities back in India now so that's where we explored and we started to think through what are some other ways in which I can expedite my permanent residents or our

6:53 Permanent residence within the US so one of the ways in which you can do that is why are the eb1 category which is the employer-based first preference category there is also the extraordinary Visa in that so it's almost like what Priyanka Chopra gets right I'm not Priyanka Chopra I'm not going to get an eb1a of course right so this this is how my thinking was that eb1c is something that I can fight for and eb1c is really the international executive manager position where you are an international executive who has multinational managerial experience so I I said fine let's explore that route and 2017 is when I started to have these conversations with my boss because to really build that case Vash you would know it's a geographical move across the oceans it takes time to happen so I started this process of really connecting with my boss in

7:53 2017 and 2019 was when I got an opportunity to move so that's almost a year and a half that worth of effort just to make that move happen and I'll just pause there Ain I know I'm just talking a lot so I I would you know give you time to just also just react and opine on that no yeah no sure I didn't want to interrupt so yeah thanks for sharing that shi I think giving a background on why you decided to go to us and you know the reasons I think you are kind of laying out of moving back to India and know the thought process so just to confirm so you were working in India before moving to us you know for a couple of years Bangalore Nama bangaluru love namama bangaluru that's where I started my career at Goldman it was back in Dore very close to cor mangla at that point and I used to live in HSR which was not this big that it is right now the HSR layout it's it's pretty pretty

8:54 Advanced as recently I saw it but very good City Bangalore I loved it and that's where even when I moved back aash in 2019 Bangalore was my first preference so I had the option to either go to Mumbai or Bangalore and Bangalore is something I know so that's what that's what we did so sounds like I think it's an internal transfer with JP so that's I think the case that you were building and you had that kind of set forth maybe I know you kind of mentioned from your career planning perspective if it's okay like I mean maybe you can share like how your husband has planned and how did it work out just because these are common questions about a career transition of course so there are other

9:41 Things also to consider aash right and I didn't make it happen through JP Moran CH JP morger and Chas I stayed only like eight months moved into management consulting after which was a big four and I'm still there so I still continue to work there now in terms of career we wanted to be very clear again of our options right after SP having spent six years in the US it's hard to really think about going back as a family and then really thinking that this move might be permanent for us right and then there might be we might be closing doors of opportunities for us so what my husband and I did was my husband decided to stay here for for that time period that I was there in India and I moved with my 1 and a half year old at the time to India alone and then of course my in-laws were very very supportive at that time so they left everything that was there you know in in their home and came to us in Bangalore and stayed with us so that was

10:43 A big level of help the other things that I also thought about ainash was that if I have to do it alone as almost like a single parent right because then UK does not remain an option anymore because I cannot get that kind of help and of course with my in-laws coming in and staying in me getting a lot of opportunities and more time to spend with my parents my daughter Trisha also spent a lot of time with her grandparents which was very important to me to us as a as a couple it's not just about career I think life is more right life and of course right and when you have kids just life is just so much more and career starts to become a smaller and smaller part of it is what I feel of course what you do you should love what you do otherwise there's no point in doing it basically but then of course life is also about how much time are you spending with kids how much time are you spending with your parents because you are going to get only very limited number of years now after and that's

11:46 Like that's the honest truth so that's where I decided that U maybe UK is not going to work or Canada is not going to work for this shortterm plan and India is where I want to be and then of course 6 years you know I've not spent Diwali in India I've not spent the New Year in India I've not spent all those festivals in India how Lively it is in India versus us it's like freezing in in New York City at least right and you you'll be wearing your big coats and jackets and it doesn't feel just the same so that's where I decided that I want a few things number one my daughter to have to spend time with her grand grandparents I get to spend time with everybody like my parents and my parent and laws and then of course having to experience the festivals for me as well as my daughter because I grew up with those experiences with going to my daddy's house and having you know chues and matri for Diwali so I wanted that experience for my daughter so that's how I planned

12:48 About which geography to choose because the firm that I work with we operate everywhere across the globe right so every everything is open but then what works out for you is is the most important bit and the second aspect also ainash is that since I I had worked in India for a large amount of time prior to moving here I knew about the working culture yeah right and still it was a kind of a shock and coming back and getting that habits back but of course I knew a little bit that what are the expectations how do managers behave how do you become a little bit more confident with with what what you're trying to bring to the table so that's where I decided that India was it and then my husband decided that he wanted to stay here now again it was a long-distance relationship with time zone differences right 12-hour time zone differences which meant that the conversations that we had were a

13:49 Little bit smaller right you can't be on the call all the time every time because I have office he's sleeping right and so on and so forth but of course he also made a point to visit us more often so he did like three trips in one year so which was very very good and then I came to us for for a little bit as well when I was in India so that's how we worked out the longdistance relationship part of that no thanks for sharing those details and giving a little bit color to that so just for my own I think maybe just to clarify a little bit for the audience right I think the logic was deciding India as a geography you know for the reasons that you have outlined for this short term while you are figuring out so I know I think one of the main factor that you mentioned is having the flexibility to do different things right you know Notting to you know a particular employer having the flexibility so I think you kind of touched a little bit but I just want to

14:49 Make sure it's clear maybe to the audience you know you have the employer who was ready to sponsor on the eb1 you know yeah and you know you Swit from EB to eb1 but you are planning to take this short-term you know change of a geography I I don't know is it because you wanted to explore something or is it because you want that to be trans I'm just so that you know we can clarify a little bit right so you have it's a requirement it's a requirement right of eb1c international manager so the requirement is exactly the the exact requirement is that you

15:26 Should have worked with the same EMP employer in an International location for at least 12 months out of the last 3 years and you should have managed teams you should have managed projects you should have managed timelines and so on so forth so you really have to demonstrate all of these things and just staying in US you can't do that right because us is within so you have to explore an international geography and which is international to us and it can be Canada it can UK generally it is these two geographies that people explore people also go to Netherlands but then if they go to Netherlands they never come back so it's just like they stay there then you you can also explore and same for same for UK actually people go to UK and they never come back they just they love it UK so much and it's much closer to India as well I think it's like 8 hour flight so they they're just like oh I just want to stay here but then Canada have seen

16:27 People come back so this is just how I've seen people work but then eb1c definitely something to explore but then there are obvious risks avash in in this path that you can take right because it's a two-way International move it's not a one-way International move it's not that you just want to go to India and you live in India right what if you go to India and you're fired right or what if you go to India and your boss is fired or what if you go to India your boss is not fired but you not on the same terms anymore and now you can't come back or what if there's just so many things that can go wrong in an international move like this that you have to be very very patient and persistent to make it happen you have to maintain good relationship over a long period of time and it's very harder it's harder than I say it because when you when you go to India you go your your

17:27 Mental how how would I put it how your mentally also goes to India like your habits and mannerisms and everything starts to almost align with the Indian work culture and Indian work culture is so Society oriented and so socialist oriented it's so almost what will she say what will he say all right and then you do not have that individualism almost that you learned so hard it's very hard to hang on to that and what I mean by that is that you will think diary should I put time or not maybe he's very busy he'll never join right my call and you start to think in those terms where you start to almost give up on the relationships that you've built so that is a hard to manage thing in in terms of this move and I do not recommend anybody to do it if they do not have very very very strong mentors and supporters in their present company

18:30 Yeah makes sense thanks for sharing that you know the details there so if we can touch a little bit on the work life balance especially you have worked in India before moving to us worked there for almost four years or five years before taking this shortterm stint at in India so can you compare and contrast the work life balance before you went to us and how it has progressed within India that's one aspect and then between us and India I think that would be very helpful and especially for women who was in a tech industry yeah you know in India it's it's different right I mean these are some of the common maybe perceptions or misconceptions or maybe anything that you can share from your experience that could definitely help people who are thinking about moving to India from

19:21 Thank you V this a very interesting questions that you're bringing and these are exactly the points that I would also think through right because I I'm a woman in Tech I started my career as an engineer at Goldman Sachs right I was coding on a 80% of the time basis then I did my masters in mathematics of Finance which is also a heavily male denominated field right so it's very interesting that you bring all of these perspectives so let me break it down for you in all the questions that you have started my career at Goldman which was an MNC still work at a big four which which is still an MNC so I've never been at a company that is wholly India based so I've never worked say at a flip cart or at a Ola right so my comparison would be between mnc's and my understanding is mnc's are slightly better than Indian owned companies culturally because at least we are able to import some

20:23 Cultural aspect of U working culture right so I'll just give you an example when I was in India Goldman or even right now we might have calls after 8:00 p.m. it's very very common and the reason is because it is an MNC your clients come in only when you know us wakes up so the time difference is there but then you can Flex so you can come in a little bit later in the morning or you can start your day at 11: 12 but then the expectation is that you stay till like 9 p.m. so that's your work day what that means in an Indian context is that you cannot not plan anything on a weekday in India it's almost impossible even on a Friday because Friday is well when your Friday is ending us Friday is starting so this is where your meetings are going to be so it's very very hard to plan anything reasonable on a weekday in India there is an expectation to also work on the weekends in in India which I still find

21:26 Bizarre so in us as well because I do work at a at a large company and we do have like very large clients right and very large projects that we are running so I might have some work on say a weekend but it's nothing that is not manageable it's nothing that is more than say 1 hour or two hours worth of work right and that's also really completely depends on you if you want to do it if you say no then like nobody's going to bother you it's not it's not common for your bosses to have your phone number in the US let me put it that way aash right yeah and in India that's the first thing that you'll do you you'll text them shy when are you going to be online or like your bosses might call you so it's the the space that you have in India mentally to do anything else on week ends and weekday is lesser yeah if you work at a company versus in us I start my work day I I

22:26 Leave my home at 7:00 a.m. in the morning right so my train is at 7:15 or so and then I'm back at around 6:00 p.m. in the evening but then I have the entire evening to do other things I can still do it and I do work a hybrid schedule which means that like some days I'm at home so I'm like 8 to 5 and then I'm done for the day so which is not a bad thing but in India you it's hard to achieve that now the diff so I covered the difference between us and Indian work culture right now how the work culture has shifted in India that's the second question that I I would like to take in terms of so I worked in India from 2010 to 2013 and then from 2019 to 21 there is a lot more carder like people are more friendly colleagues become friends more easily in India there are pros and cons to that approach more cons than Pros but that is some

23:28 Something that I've seen in terms of I I don't think the work culture has evolved as much there is still a lot of competition to get to the top tenor is heavily heavily you need tenor right and by tenor I mean that somebody who has 25 years of work experience would be picked over somebody who has 15 years of work experience even though 15E might be getting higher value for whatever they they creating right maybe more sales or whatever they're trying to do so that tenor is still heavily heavily valued in India and if you don't have a certain number of years of work experience outside of the tech industry then you cannot meaningfully become a significantly senior executive is is where I would put it now as a woman in Tech again interesting question right and I've not worked in any technology company so my understanding is that may

24:28 Google or say meta does not operate in India but Google might might be keeping a good working culture for for the diverse sort of candidates but at least in the finance space that I've Been There is almost a cultural I would say cultural mindset that women cannot meaningfully contribute to say a technology role or if a woman is doing a technology role well she's diversity candidate right so that's very heavily ingrained in the culture of how we think it's a hard to get out of in just one generation or two generations so that's definitely there definitely something that is changing but then you would continue to see that people who come in from say a very good Institute especially our male colleagues can

25:31 Have this inherent bias that women are here only because they're women instead of really thinking about is she capable of doing that so that's a very interesting perspective there are like other nuances that we as women has have to navigate as well which is different than what some of our male colleagues might have to navigate in the same environment oh yeah thanks for sharing your perspectives and insights especially the differences between us and India and your experience you know working in 2010 and 2019 that brings up me a quick question I think you are in India during the covid time right I mean yes that's correct yeah so I think it would have been very interesting I mean especially with the remote you know structure hybrid and things evolving I don't know with the Consulting you know which which request bit of a travel so I I don't know like how you were able to navigate and also you mentioned about this long distance you know so just curious

26:34 Anything you wanted to share from your perspective in terms of people who are considering about this option like you know doing that kind of a planning anything that you can share as an insights on that so that's

26:48 Interesting aanes I think as a consultant I was like 5 days an office right prior to covid and by five days an office in India specifically for some Consulting companies it might mean that you're working out of something called an ODC which is almost like a secured site and the secured site means that you can't even take inside your cell phones right or your because there's just confidential data and we're trying to work with our International clients to give them trust that India is a place where you can trust us with your system so that's why we'll create these almost ecosystems where we do our work it was very interesting when remote happened like how quickly we were able to adapt as a firm as a company and as a be best practice that it's okay not to be on the desk all the time you can actually take this remote and you can

27:50 Actually trust your people to deliver outside of your secured Arrangements right so that shift happened overnight and then now vaj I cannot even think that you know I was doing five days in office with a one and a half year old so I have another 10-month old now and I I think how was I doing it you know how was I taking a 7:00 train every morning coming back at 600 and then my toddler would sleep at like 8 and and she's cranky like 6: to 8 right like morning is the good time with the kids so how was was I managing it it's very very interesting but then what I would recommend highly for anybody who's considering this move is very important reduce your family commute time and family commute time what I mean is that if your kids go to school by bus it's great you know put them in the bus send them but then you should be staying very very close to

28:52 Your office at least one person's office so that they if if they go in It's like a 5 minute or a 10 minute drive and then they can come back that's because Bangalore traffic is insane Hyderabad traffic is insane you and you would not even get an Uber in the morning right U you would be like you'll be ready 8:00 you'll start booking your Uber till 9:30 you're not going to get it so be very mindful of those challenges which are very very real and they can wear down on you right just think about it you're trying to book an Uber for 1 hour every day for 5 days just you're going to be in a very bad mental state so what really helped for me was that I was staying at a 5 minute walking distance from my office so I would get down drop my kid at the daycare for for a bit right she was like two she started to go to school well it's School daycare sort of right and then I would go to work so that sort of arrangement is very

29:52 Important if both of you are working from office something which is not ideal U ideally I would not pick that option I would rather have that both of you have remote flexibility so that you know two days one parent is home two days the other parent is home and then you can think about how how do you want to manage but I think that is very important in India especially cool so maybe just reflecting back right I think you got a chance to spend time in India and now you're back in us it's been again another 2 three years been living based on your experience living in India do you what how does the future hold I know it's a very you know big assumption here but just curious you know is this something still on cards or based on your experience may not be right now just curious from your experience what you have in plans in the

30:53 Future so I have not decided aan and

30:57 I I think that's where I I think life is an adventure right I and I'm 35 right and we have this mind said that 30 my life finish okay now you can't do anything you know if you have not achieved your dreams like you might as well just wait for death but that's not how life works and I think you would agree that 30s is when you're really getting into the groove because you've spent your entire 20s building yourself up and I don't want that sense of Advent venture to end for me and for my kids I I don't like this idea of settling down it's just like I'm not a tree so and that's what the fact that I have with my husband is that sure careers are important and it's important to build that Financial stability but then how much is enough right and when you can't put everything for retirement yeah when I'm retired I'll write a book you know

31:58 When I'm retired I'll watch TV when I'm retired I'll travel number one you'll have arthitis number two number two you might not just have the same level of what you want to do right now so we have kept it very open Avage in terms of our plans overall I would say the overall plan is that to give great opportunities for our kids that's of course very high on the list because that's what parents always continue to think about out but then second not lose the spark of this adventure right that you you can still explore that 30 is not old 40 is not old 50 is not old you can change locations or you can change geographies at any point in your life that's completely possible so continuing to build towards that and that's also the mindset that not to settle down right will I stay in us forever I don't know will I move to India I don't know will I mve to UK I

32:58 Don't know right so it's it's the sense of adventure that that I'm on but of course India is very close also given that the how we celebrate festival and I think I was talking about it earlier you're wearing big jackets here when it's Dali right and in India it's like truly where you see that how festivals are so that's something definitely on the cards but the reasons have to be right and the reasons would not be aash that now I want to settle down and you know that's maybe when we are 65 that's when we will think about what is the city that we want to stay in but open to Adventure and open to new possibilities new locations till then yeah life is all about adventures and experiences for sure yeah so I just want to Circle back to the the discussion that we started off with know with the the flexibility right I think I know you have been with the big four you know an amazing career

34:01 But you also mentioned about the flexibility so you have like other Consulting that you do like is there anything that you can share like you know what is that flexibility what is that you're passionate about what are things that you have tried so we can kind of circle back to that you know which is an important aspect that you look for and that's the reason you kind of took this option and then kind of written so how is that going and What you know yeah if you can share something that would be fantastic so that's very interesting ainash right again so social media is something that

34:34 Was up and coming I would say in 2016 and 17 and 16 and 17 if you made it on social media and you had a good Niche and you could work with it you would have made good money right and you would have made a good brand for yourself which you can then pivot onwards and so on and so forth so that is something that I really wanted to explore right but then when you do social media and how I think aash is that I want to have return on my time basically right and by return on my time is either number one I'm enjoying it and that's why I'm doing it I'm passionate about it or I'm making money out of it right you some extra income so that you you can put towards your future and your kids future or I would rather just watch Netflix to be honest right like I I don't want to work for free so even

35:46 Enjoying it after a certain time so that's where I started my content creation journey in 2019 as soon as I moved back to India 2019 I would say was all learning so I was still learning how to make videos how to be present on camera because I've never done it before prior to that right editing long form videos I was editing my videos myself and these are long form I was editing on premere Pro you know 20 minute videos and I was doing it every day along with my full-time job so I created almost like a skincare Channel which was I would say pretty success successful skincare Channel back in the day I was I would say unnown skincare influencer back in 2019 and 20 a little successful a little bit not too much but a little bit right so that's where I learned all my content skills and that's where I started to get brand deals as well now I started to get brand deals I'm working in India so it's perfectly I can do

36:47 Anything that I want and I see the pay is peanuts and the pace peanuts by that aash what I mean is that I I had a Channel with 50,000 followers right and each of my videos was getting I would say 50,000 to 100,000 views at that time and shorts a little bit in millions right so it was a good Channel and the money I was making was 10,000 rupees INR for say a one short it's not worth it it's not worth it worth the time and the kind of publicity that I can bring to the brands so that's when I decided that this number one not going to work out for me longterm you know getting paid much much much more doing what I'm good at which is finance and then it also helped me explore and close that Gap that I've never tried something else I've never tried this content maybe I will be good at it right and then you experience it and then you're like fine you're good at it and then that's that's

37:49 All right you move away so when I moved back to us in 2021 I kind of shut down my skin care and like that was not working out for me and then finally what I did was I started something that I'm good at which is finance and career and because this is something that I've really navigated so far and well almost well I would say right it's it's not too bad so that's where I wanted to help our our candidates and kids really think about their careers because at 20 I didn't have Clarity I was like wasting away my time so I thought if and because I'm the first born in in my family there was nobody to guide me so all the guidance I had to get was gather myself and do it myself so I said fine let's start to do help our kids with a few things number one is identifying if they want to do their masters if they want to do it abroad

38:49 Then I do have a services that I provide in terms of RAR writing your statement of purpose or rarely writing your resume or if you are looking at a a career pivot then how can you manage or moving into mid-level management how do you manage how do you manage your finances so that's where I started to bring in a little bit more value and now I do have a thriving you know side hustle that I still manage continue to manage which is in career finance and education and then of course I help people directly one-on-one so that is something that I'm sure you'll find somewhere in the description box if you want to book time but then very limited availability because I work fulltime so I do have like Saturday and Sunday to help our folks so that's where my side hustle evolved like eventually I decided has to stay side Hustle but at the same time I want to help people as well so that is important great yeah no thanks for sharing that so I'm just being mindful of the time is there

39:51 Anything that we haven't covered or any advice that you want to share for people who are aspiring or who are considering to move back to India from your perspective I mean I think seeing the both sides of the world you know somebody with with the adventure spirit and so on I mean anything that you wanted to share that we haven't covered so far right so when

40:15 I moved back to India aash right and I knew that I'm moving on a temporary basis so what I did I did not go and buy furniture that's a that's number one thing that I I would say because you don't know if you will like India or not right and U you might not right and it's very different for everybody and then or you might and your kids might not right your kids might be in middle school and they might want to come back so what do you do so what I tell everybody ainash is that be mindful that the first 6 months to one year is really your testing phase of whether you really want to move back or is it just the idea of moving back to India that brought you there so in order to do that you can go and buy you know your electronics and all that I recommend buy secondhand so that you don't spend too much money up front but then for furniture just rent it right and and the

41:19 Reason I say rent it is that it will be functional for the first 6 months you can get a bed City furnish guys will come they will set up the bed in like 3 hours is Right a bed and sofa and a study table and everything and then when you're leaving they will take it back in 3 hours so you don't have to do anything just pay rent on on those items and then if you decide that this is the place that you want to stay at you can meaningfully start to buy furniture step by step so you don't have to buy go to Ikea and get everything all together because now you're spending lacks and lacks of RUP P to set up and then one year later you realize it's not even for me so let be mindful of that that's that's number one there's going to be a difference that you will see in in in terms of how people work and how people manage things so sure you have house help in in India avash right but then you have to manage the help also

42:19 Right that's also a task that is onto you and sometimes it's just easier to do things yourself so and because we from us we're so used to doing things ourselves it just translates like that like you will see hous heal not working as you would do something and then you would go in and do it yourself so that mindset shift almost takes a little bit of time as well to to get used to and then of course there is dust and pollution that we cannot we cannot be prepared for so that again takes time for you to really think about in the in the one one month or two month month's time frame is definitely something that I would think about that be open be open to Opportunities be open to what you can do there but then don't just go with the intent of all in at at once like think about a little bit about your finances so that you don't basically waste money in something that you might not enjoy in

43:21 The long term oh yeah no thanks for sharing some practical tactical things there in terms of the plan so yeah once again thank you very much for taking the time and being with us and sharing your insights your journey and how you planned about you know the temporary move and then back there and also like as you think about the future so thanks a lot for your time today shivy thank you so much Avinash for having me I'm certain that a lot of people are thinking about moving back to India few reasons because the permanent residency is a little bit more challenging in the Western countries right now and then India has so many more opportunities that we can we can definitely take take for us and create something meaningful so so happy to be here and to be able to share my experience of living on both the sides of the world and hopefully be able to help some people think about when they move move back to India yeah for sure I mean the

44:21 Idea is to provide the facts and help people make the decision whether to stay or yeah so yeah thanks a lot have a good day thank you thank you thank you all for joining us on this insightful journey of Dy return if you enjoyed this episode and want to explore more stories and expert advice make sure to subscribe and hit the notification Bell don't forget to leave a comment below with your thoughts and experiences by the way check out the links in the description below for our Facebook group and social media for updates and engaging discussions as well as connecting with fellow Thea wrers thank you once again and until next time may your Thea journey be filled with joy growth and endless possibilities