Watch: 6 Years in Amsterdam: Why I Came Back to India

3:16 >> So how was the life in Amsterdam? >> I think I can start from the starting because I spent 6 years there and I felt like I literally grew up there as a person. I mean I went there in in the end of 2018, so we can say 2019. and I was about 28 years, 29 years, something like that at that time. So the first thing that hit me when I landed there was that my whole social circle is gone. >> Yeah. >> That felt like a shock, although this was all my planning, right? but luckily I did have these three friends from India, people I knew from here who had also moved there a while ago.

4:05 >> Okay. >> So, it was not a complete disaster in that sense, and I did make friends there along the way, new friends from other countries as well. I think besides that in the beginning everything is great. there was a bit of culture shock here and there, but I think you can walk around it. Like the Dutch culture is very different from Indian culture, but if you find out because Amsterdam is a cosmopolitan city, right? So, you will find people from different parts of the world, and you find that Italians are a lot like you, Chinese people are a lot like you, Spanish people are a lot like you. So, you will find people. Indians are a bit hard to find in Amsterdam, but that was also my isolated experience because a lot of my friends they were working in Booking.com, which is like a company that hires Indians in wholesale.

5:01 >> So, they see a lot of Indians around them, but it was different for me. so, that feeling that, "Okay, I have come to a very It was a foreign country, but then you start feeling it also that it this is not India. This is nothing like India." So, that feeling is there, but of course, it's a first-world country, so you see the differences of the infra and how it benefits you. First thing you notice is that my everyday can look exactly the same. There are no surprises at all. Like no surprise in terms of traffic, there's never going to be traffic. The trams, trains, everything is on time. So, and nothing out of the ordinary really happens. So, in that sense, stress goes out of your life completely.

5:50 The li- life gets calmer. So, for a while unless I mean, for a while everything looks good. And then you start feeling like, "Oh, I need to know the language to live here." Because if you've been there as a tourist, you'll be like, "Everyone speaks English. It's all okay." But all the government work happens in Dutch. And you go grocery sho- shopping, you'll be like, "I don't know any of these brands." All the boxes are written in Dutch. So, it takes getting used to. Because the first few months, I was walking with my Google Translate app with its camera on to find the because I I if I wanted a shampoo, I brought home a conditioner. If I wanted a detergent, I brought home a softener.

6:36 So, that happened a few times. And you don't know how to pay for groceries which have no labels, like vegetables which have no labels. How do you pay for them? So, a friend of mine told a story that for the first few weeks, she did not pay for them. So, she was basically shoplifting because she did not know how to pay for these things. >> So, those are funny experiences like getting used to. if you have a circle there already, it helps because then they help you get on boarded into this new city, right? There were a few racist incidents in the

7:10 Beginning. It never happened after that. and this was mostly coming from the older people there. Very mild racist incidents which I mean, the first few times when it happened, it was a shock. Like, how am I being discriminated? Like, I come from some sort of privilege in India. I'm not used to this kind of behavior. So, it also made me emotional that and then I realized, "Okay, next time if it happens, I'm going to give it back to this person. So I also rehearsed a few lines what I'm going to say. So that had and then yeah, I was talking about language earlier. I also noticed that since all the announcements in the trains and trams are in Dutch, people around you are speaking in Dutch. So I felt that I need to know a little bit of this language to feel like I'm a part of this society. So I started learning that language.

8:10 I did one course only and then COVID hit. So then I stopped it, but I knew enough Dutch to understand a little bit of what's going on around me. >> So that was the language part. also something that I was always uncomfortable with was the housing market in Amsterdam. It is very very difficult to find a house there >> Mhm. >> as a renter. And I mean the recent times when I was there it was also difficult to buy a house because everyone was overbidding on the houses. So the process was bidding even on buying a house and even on renting a house. And that makes it crazy because there are lesser houses than the number of people seeking those houses. So that's a tough one.

9:00 So if anyone wants to go there, they should if if they have help some realtor helping them out, then it becomes a bit easier. Even in India we would tell you that in COVID we had to do everything ourselves. Which was all already my situation there. >> [laughter] >> So you I mean how much ever you earn, I think up until a certain point you can't hire maids. It doesn't make sense. They charge you about 40 euros for 2 hours. That was the rate back then. And they will come once a week minimum. So, I would I hired a maid after a point. I mean, I was living alone. I didn't need a maid, but I just wanted to protect my time.

9:46 So, I eventually hired one who would just clean it. And they could iron your clothes, but you can't make them do everything that you ask of a maid in India. And they will not clean your toilets, for example. And they will not do your dishes, not all of them. So, every because everyone has a certain standard of living there. Yeah. We don't have really poor people there. So, why would anyone do your shitty work for you? So, that's one thing. And I think that's how you found me because I was talking about it on LinkedIn that after a point you feel that the value of your time is going into all these chores because Europe and Amsterdam, they're great for work-life balance because your work stops at 5:00 and 5:00 dot.

10:33 Nobody is ever going to call you after 5:00. you don't have to explain why you're leaving work at 5:00. In fact, in Germany, which is most of my colleagues were in Germany because right now I'm employed with Adidas and there also I was employed with Adidas in the last bits of it. In Germany, it's even illegal to work over the weekend. So, that work-life balance, it's great. You get your evenings, but then there was a lot you have to do yourself. You do your There's no service industry in Amsterdam, right? So, you have to do your groceries yourself. You have to throw the garbage out at a certain time on a certain day, otherwise then it's your house is stinking. all the cleanliness, your it's your thing. But I think the biggest chunk of time that the chore that takes the biggest chunk is cooking.

11:26 Because I was cooking all three of my meals. >> And I think that is the biggest time taker and something I wouldn't compromise on. >> So then that started like that started playing on my mind really badly. >> Got >> I wanted to something else with my time and not just this. And that especially hit me more than friends who were couple is because they could share the responsibilities, but I had to do everything myself. and on top of that because I'm also a little bit of an obsessive person that I do everything with a full heart. Either I do it fully or I don't. So I would do I would put my 100% in my job and then I would do this also very properly. So that was driving me a bit crazy. And on top of that if a new problem comes in your life like a landlord pings me, now you have to leave my house. Your lease of 2 years is coming to an end.

12:27 Then so what that did to me is that I was always looking over my shoulder like waiting for another shoe to drop. So I think the negative negative aspects of living there. it might not happen to everyone, not feeling at home. That was a feeling I could not shrug. >> I I mean my mind was telling me this is a better place to live in the sense that my future is very secure because in India only the government jobs pay you pension. I think now not even that, but in there you're taken care of. And that is why it is in the top 10 list of the happiest countries in the world every year.

13:27 However, they do that survey, I don't know. But because they don't have to care about the basic needs, right? About that >> making their ends meet and their futures are already very secure and they know it. Their education is free. If you pay a nominal fee for health insurance every month and everyone does that, it's mandatory. Your health is taken care of. What is then the biggest worry in life?

13:52 >> So, let's talk about I know there is few things going on in your mind, right? I think you know, the time that you're spending on chores, the other aspects that I think brewing in your mind. Like when when did that started becoming much more clear where you are trying to see if this is the life that you want to live or you wanted to change. When did that thought started occurring to you? And maybe I'm guessing that kind of like you do think about moving to India, but is that right or have you considered some other countries like I know you mentioned briefly about going to US. So, when did this thought occurred and how did you thought through this process? >> I think from day one I was clear that I want to go back. I really wished that something would change my mind. It never happened. There was also a thought about leaving my parents behind. Although my brother and my sister-in-law live with my parents, but I always I'm the elder sister. So, I was like, I need to be

14:54 Close to my parents they're aging. That thought was always there because I've heard incidents about people's parents passing away in India while they're abroad. I couldn't bear the thought of that. I That was something that never left my mind. Maybe because of my abandonment issues or whatever. And then this chores thing especially started playing on my mind after I reached a certain level in my job where the aspirations became clearer that maybe I want to do something on my off my own at one point. I need to learn a bit more. I need to build things on the side and there's no time for that if I'm putting all my time in chores. So that happened in the last 2-3 years, but then there was also one more factor that the factor of feeling lonely there.

15:39 And I and that started increasing in intensity. So what would happen is that when I was visiting in India and I would try to visit twice a year. Going back started becoming harder and harder. So you know, even though I was not consciously thinking about it, my body was already in that mode already. I was just not aware. So going back started getting tougher and then I started discussing move back and somebody said, "Why?" I financial liability that I have to have a job. Like I can come back to India without a job.

16:30 Doing it? So I think that was another point. I had to spend so much energy in managing my mood after a point that it stopped making sense. I started feeling And that was also I think like if I move back in 2024 November, in March I talked to my manager at Adidas that I want to go home. And what I told her was that I feel lonely and I think my mental health is taking a hit. I was very honest with her. Also, do you got things you can talk to a European manager about and not an Indian manager for example.

17:20 I had also suffered from a mental health issue before that in the middle. I had developed a moderate case of depression. I came out of it. And I had the help in Amsterdam. I could talk to my then manager also. I told him, "I'm suffering from this. I don't need time off. I just need support that I might take a day off here and there." Amsterdam supported the life I wanted to have. But then I always envisioned a future in India close to family. That was very important for me. I wanted a partner who's Indian who speaks Hindi. That was important to me. I felt like I don't want to feel not being rich.

18:08 I don't want this ceiling on top of my head of how much I can grow. I want my time back even if I do nothing with it. >> And I discussed with a Indian friend who also moved to Amsterdam that there are certain people who feel great about moving there and say we will never go back to India. These are usually the people who had a bad life or not a good life in India. She and I are not people from those kind of situations. I did not have a bad life in India. There there are friends of mine who were like sick annually, like perennially sick. Every month they're sick because of pollen allergy or whatever and then when they moved to Amsterdam the sickness went away. So, it's great for them, right? And I have a friend who's just very sensitive to stressful situations.

19:02 I can see she's very calm in Amsterdam. She is happy and whenever she visits here she goes back in the same thing even on a short visit. And then you can tell for this person this country is not not for her. >> Yes. >> So it makes sense for her. For somebody else, it didn't make any sense for me. And I because I am of I am a Desi Return, I also know other Desi Returns and you know I hear similar things. I am a Desi Return, know I hear similar things. I also watched a YouTube video where this guy had researched that what are the IIT AIR 1 and 2 doing for the last few years? What are these guys? Where are these guys?

19:49 I think he researched on 15 of them. All of them are in US working for Google, Microsoft, and so on. Two guys only are in India. And if you he interviewed them and these guys are like we're here for family. Obviously those job opportunities of that level are not here. So we are building our own startups. So I think it's a great opportunity and time to come back to India because of the startup culture here and the government supporting it. But I am very aware that you have to take a massive hit and you have to have a lot of self-confidence to take that hit. >> So there are real cons to moving back. but in Netherlands it's very easy to take the Dutch citizenship. You have to be there for 5 years and in your fourth year you can start giving the Dutch citizenship exams which I think are not at all tough for Indians to crack.

20:45 Everyone was advising me that you know take the Dutch passport and then move back with an OCI card. And I said I my clarity is max. I don't need that option. But people who are not clear can also try that, right? the point when I moved back, all my friends knew I always wanted to move back, but I think they really believed it when I started my process of moving back. And then people started sharing with me that they also want to move back, and I was surprised by how many people that how many people told me that. And not just Indians, people from other countries also. And then you hear about the reasons of not being able able to move back. Some of the reasons I already said, but then there are also reasons like they genuinely get stuck because if there are couple, one person wants to move back and the other one doesn't.

21:38 And some of the women are trying to escape their mother-in-laws. And the guys want to go back for their parents. And girls also have their parents there, so but whatever. So people get stuck because of that situation a lot of times. sometimes they've had babies who have grown up, and it's hard to come back. >> but I also had a lingering fear of being in that country that what if a real problem happens. Like when my biking incident happened, I started feeling like that because even though the Dutch police know English, there's a lot that gets lost in translation because the English that I speak not my first language either. I'm very comfortable with it, but it's not their first language and they're not so comfortable with it. So a lot gets lost in translation.

22:32 And then I also watched that movie Norway versus Mrs. Chatterjee. And it's not lies because a friend in New York, an Indian friend of mine, she had a similar issue, and she told me if another incident happens with my child, I am afraid they'll take away my child from me. >> So when the real when hits the fan, is this country new country going to support you or is going to support another local person versus you. I I think I'm not comfortable living with all of that in my head. So, I had my reasons. >> No, yeah. Thanks a lot for sharing the

23:14 Detailed thought process. I know you kind of touched on the loneliness. Is there anything that you want to expand on? I know this is a subtle thing lot of people go through but don't talk openly about or they don't recognize it or they don't consider that or they don't talk about it so openly. Anything that you want to add on from your experience or some other friends that you have seen on that topic. >> Lots of people feel this. I also feel that people who are couple a couple living in a foreign country also is lonely and I see it. They will not say to you maybe but you feel it and that is one of the reasons is because it's hard to integrate into the Dutch society.

24:04 Imagine a foreigner in your surrounding >> Is it easy for this person to become a part of your community? It's the similar thing. It's not because the people are a certain way. They will speak Dutch like we forget to talk in English around a foreigner. They also do that. they have the cultures are very different so the integration into the society becomes different. You find expat friends or you find Indian friends. I always say that it's best to go to a foreign country as an undergrad because then you build your own circle there and a lot of friends. That's also easier to make friends when you're younger. I think it's all about community. if you're lucky enough to build that community there, it's great but since it's a country that is for expats, you'll see that okay, I made a friend. I This friend of mine is I with me for 10 years, but tomorrow she takes a decision to move to another country. So, it's a

25:04 Very moving population. >> Got it. >> Also. >> I met a couple who moved from Singa- Indian couple moved from Singapore to Amsterdam, and the girl was telling me, "In Singapore, I had fifth 40 guys, my husband's friends, who were always at my flat. And it used to annoy me. But now that I'm here and I've nobody, I miss all of that." >> so, loneliness comes from not having your people. I would have people to hang out with, but I didn't have people I could say, "This is my person. These are my people who will prioritize me over their plans." Also, because Dutch people have this have something called agenda, which is basically their diary, which is booked for the next few months.

25:53 And then everyone who has moved to that country starts operating in that sense. So, people to prioritize me whenever I need them, that's not the easiest thing to do. Definitely, because the structure in the culture is different, I think. Yeah. >> So, let's talk a little bit about the planning. I think you mentioned on the

26:16 Career side, like you took the internal transfer, you talked to your manager. What about maybe other like on the financial side, logistics, anything that you can share in terms of the planning when you decided to move back to India? >> So, if you are with a good employer, all of these things get handled. for me, for example, I was with Adidas and I was getting an internal transfer. My everything was handled. I don't think I paid a penny from my pocket even for moving all the stuff I'd hold in there. I moved everything in 10 suitcases in a flight. >> And Adidas was paying for it. And I got more money to settle down in India even though I didn't need it because I had a house here.

27:08 There is a point of okay, moving all your money to India. It's not I never felt very easy like I was not very comfortable in my head to invest in the stock market there because I didn't understand it so much because I'm always mutual funds person. so I had to move a lot of cash and I use this Wise app >> to do it because with a banking system the charges are a surprise sometimes. So that is how I moved my money. Second, I wanted to move my pension fund. I could not do that. And after trying really hard, I figured out it's not a flaw of the Dutch system, it's a flaw of the Indian system. In the Dutch system, the pension fund is a private thing like a private company's pension funds. You have multiple options and the company you decide to go with one or the other. In India, it's a government thing, right? So in India,

28:08 It's not possible for your pension fund in India to receive money from your employer. >> To receive money from anybody else rather than your employers what I wanted to say. So even if my Dutch pension fund would have agreed to transfer the money, the Indian pension fund was not able to receive it. So my pension fund in Amsterdam is still there in They have assured me that they will pay me when I hit the retirement age as per the Dutch law, which is I think 68 69, something like that. So yeah, but that money is not growing at the rate it would have grown if I I would have invested it in India. that is I think that was one thing. But our Singaporean employee could transfer his pension fund to Singapore when he left Amsterdam.

29:02 So, that was one hitch. everything else Coming back is easy except finding a job. It is a big thing, right? I tried looking for jobs. I didn't get no replies because there's so many people applying for a job in India. I don't think they even entertained me because of a Dutch phone number. so you have to find look for a job after moving to India. So, obviously you need I think most people will come back with money to be able to sit on it to find a job, but yeah, I think people should research on the Indian job market and how to find a job here because they tend to forget after living there. There the HR is very active on LinkedIn. Everybody replies to every application, which is not the experience in India. Again, because of population.

29:57 >> So, I'll say those were the top things. >> Yeah. So, in terms of the move, like I know you meant you took the internal transfer. Like were you clear about the place where you want to relocate to India? Because it depends on the employment side as well as family. So, does both match together or you have to make any decision? >> Yeah, because I am from the north. I wanted to stay in the north close to family. That was one of the biggest reasons. Also, I wanted to move back. So, it was clear that I'm going to be in Delhi Gurgaon. I've also done a part of my schooling from Delhi. So, it was just all those reasons that okay, it's clear. I want to stay in the north. Although most of the jobs in India are in the south. but still, yeah, it was clear to me and luckily my company had it as as their office in Arida in Gurgaon. >> Gurgaon. Okay. Cool.

30:46 >> So, how is the life in India? I think you know, there were certain expectations that you went to Europe. I think we talked about the reality and you know, you decided to move back to

30:56 India. So, how how how have the things been in India so far? >> I had a list of my top 15 problems in automatically on day one of moving back. But everything had to do with not having people around, not having help, all of that. So, majority of the problems solved. and I feel very happy and safe. And everyone who sees me on my Instagram stories never fails to tell me that you look so happy, Garima. But then there are real things to keep in mind. Even though I was only there for just 6 years, I almost forgot how it is living >> And you know how there's this funny thing on Insta that India's not for beginners? That's that's true. You have to learn how to live in India after Yeah. And people should not underestimate the amount of time it'll take to integrate back.

31:54 For me, when I had help of a partner who has also moved back from the US at a certain point, despite that it has taken me 1 year at least to start feeling like a local. I don't think I feel that 100% but I had very stupid issues like my volume had gone down in Europe. I would not speak loudly because everyone is very soft. So, people would take it as a weak thing. People would try to ask me for extra money. And people would tell me, "Huh, I can't hear you. What are you saying?" So, those kind of things also I do learn how to say no to everyone who's trying to get extra money from me, a a driver or things like that. then getting comfortable with with the work culture again. Although it was the same company and I was working with the same people from Germany. I still had to understand how the system here works, but because it's still the same.

32:57 Even though my work-life balance is still very intact, there is a change. You have to get >> so. Like I'm just curious. Like because it's the same team, same company, like why >> HR is in India, right? >> So there is an expectations within the local yeah, organization. >> There are extra rules here because there is no trust in the workforce in India. People believe you there. People have faith. And because it's also a very honest society there and Indians are not so honest. I can generalize that statement at least. so HR is also not trusting you so much. So there are extra rules. And I don't want to comment on Indian HR. >> but I think that starts creating a problem. And also I think there are there is more There are all sorts of people in India.

33:51 Like I said earlier that people are very similar in Amsterdam. All of them are exposed to same standards of education. But you know, India is a very diverse society. So you meet people from those parts of society and then there's a friction. So you have to get used to that new atmosphere. >> You also have to get used to the commute, the traffic that can go from 1 and 1/2 hours to 2 and 1/2 hours, 3 hours. And if it's it has rained in Gurgaon and Delhi, then well, that's a different horror story, right? and your days are never the same here. And I don't know why it happens. Like I can't explain it, but everyday is a different story. Something or the other keeps happening here which also is entertaining, but then it's not it's not like Amsterdam where everyday stays the same.

34:45 But you have a lot of help here. I feel very supported. My my support system is really solid and that's what gives me safety. but yes, be ready for 1 year, 2 years, and even 3 years of settling down in India. It will take time, but if you have clarity, I think it's worth making that move. >> So, what would you advise people who are thinking about going abroad or you know, people who are in abroad thinking

35:15 About moving to India? >> To people going abroad, my biggest advice is that don't go just because everyone else is going. You should have your own definition of good life. Because a lot of time you go outside and you realize that this is not for me. like you know how people from Punjab are just all flying to Canada, Australia. But do they even know what those people are doing there? The thing is that Indians living abroad are not going to tell you their sad stories all the time. They're going to hide it. So, do your research thoroughly. At least talk to people who have returned. They will tell you the truth.

36:01 So, you should have a definition of good life and if you have that good life in India, then just go there for exposure and not because you can't be sure that you will have a better life. >> So, for the people coming back to India, I would say this is a big big life decision. it will change the rest of your life, so take time to think through this and the reasons because a lot of people are going to tell you this is not the right thing to do. and the move is not going to be 100% smooth. Settling down in India is not going to be 100% smooth, but if you know your reasons well, it will pay off. I've heard a lot of people saying it was worth it. I also feel it was worth it, but not the smoothest and I took 1 and 1/2 years to 2 years contemplating this move and even after I I'd set all the things in motion to move back, like talking to my manager and all of that, I was still hoping that maybe at a certain point I will I might regret it.

37:03 It never happened. I'm very glad, but and that's why I'm saying you just think through this because not everyone is moved alone by them would move alone by themselves like I did. You would have family, maybe you have kids. So, it has to be a The reasoning should be super solid is what I want to say. And if you think back, is there anything that you would have done differently than what you have done like in terms of the move? From a planning, from any other aspects? >> yes. I did not give myself the grace to settle down in Amsterdam in the first year. I heavily underestimated the level of adjustment and change, which I think induced a lot of stress.

37:51 So, I gave myself that grace after moving back to India. I I think that might have also contributed to the depression I faced. >> Is there anything that we haven't

38:06 Covered that you want to bring up today for our audience? >> I think there's a big topic around women's safety that people talk about. and not just Indians, but Asians. And I think it applies to America also, by the way. so, in Amsterdam, I don't know if I should say this, but I feel like if there is a woman walking around naked in the night, nobody is going to touch her. Nobody is going to like she won't feel unsafe. That's how safe that city is. walkable city, I used to walk around a lot. I had all that freedom, but in while coming back to Delhi, you can't I mean, you don't have the option of walking.

38:51 But also, you have to be cautious about the safety aspect. I can't walk around at 12 in the midnight in Delhi all by myself on a road, but I feel safe taking a cab at midnight. And I am aware of what people say about Delhi and the truth of Delhi, but I am cautious. I also want to say it. I think it can be a it can be controversial, but it's not a hot take. I have lived in multiple cities in cities in India. I've lived in Srinagar, Palampur in Himachal Pradesh, Delhi, Gurgaon, Bangalore, and I've traveled to multiple other parts of India. And every place I've been eve teased, cat called, groped.

39:37 But maybe it's my luck, it has never happened in Delhi. Not a single minor incident. And that is probably because I just know my way around the city. I know how to be safe here. I mean, obviously the city needs to change, law and order culture needs to change, all of that. I did face like feel that change. Not the same freedom as in Amsterdam, but it's not as bad for me. >> So. >> No, yeah. So, thank you very much for bringing that up and sharing your thoughts on it. I think it's an important point for a lot of people on their mind. So, thanks for talking about it. Yeah, thanks a lot Garima for taking the time sharing lot of insights from your journey and talking very openly about some topics that people not acknowledge or talk about. So, really appreciate that and good luck with everything and thanks again.

40:35 >> Thank you Avinash. Thanks for having me. >> Yeah, sure.